triple_d_ooc | Introductions are in order

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Introductions are in order

Salutations. I'm a new player here and I'm bringing in Ciel Phantomhive from Kuroshitsuji. Jut a little info about him:

Ciel was your normal average child growing up in Victorian England until his 10th birthday when both of his parents Earl Vincent Phantomhive, and Rachel Phantomhive were murdered. It was believed that Ciel had also perished in the inferno that destroyed their palatial Manor house only he reappeared three years later with a butler clad all in black in tow. Now he seeks revenge against those that humiliated and sullied the Phantomhive name.

Also he took up the responsibilities his father left behind. Those baring the Phantomhive name have acted as Queen Victoria's unseen hand for years, ridding the underbelly of English society from the filth that Scotland Yard is unable to reach themselves.

He also runs a toy and confectionery company (Funtom). Ciel himself can seem cold and unfeeling but as a noble he is also able to be quite diplomatic. It depends on the situation really.

As a n00b, be gentle with me XDDDD. Looking forward to getting things running ^__^ and meeting you all.

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Welcome. Looking forward to seeing you about!

Thanks for the warm welcome! ~~GREED!~~

Thanks for the sociable self introduction. ~~Hope to live up to any expectations you have of the character!~~

Your welcome but Ah, those are not so rare are they? Don't worry about it. I'm sure you're fine. Besides everyone has their own ideas of how a character should be played. That's what makes it so interesting, getting to learn about the different versions and takes (I've found it can also lead to a better understanding of the character in general). I just found Greed particularly intriguing in the first Fullmetal Alchemist anime. I haven't read the manga or watched any of Brotherhood as of yet.

Neither are warm welcomes.

There's a theory of different versions and takes, but then there's also a matter of the boundaries of accuracy in character through feel and form for interpretation. Noticed in a conversation below you're intro translation yourself and have a nice healthy disdain for translations that take too many liberties or not enough, so, you're probably going to get annoyingly stalked by me now. It's the kind of topic I like to talk to myself about while pretending other people are listening.

And I think Brotherhood is, without hyperbole or overstatement, the single worst anime it has ever been my displeasure to view in any capacity, so that may affect or reflect my take on Greed and a lot of parts of FMA. Love the manga, though.

Touché

In the end the only one who can be sure if a translation or representation of a character is accurate or not is whether the creator of said character believes it to be so. The rest of us are all guessing based on the clues and nuances they encapsulated in their works. It is however entertaining to theorize on the subject and present our own opinions about it. Stalk away if you feel the desire to. ~~I was thinking of doing the same~~.

You don't want to get me started on bad translations. Seriously. You'll be hearing about little "tsu" all day.. for one. If you ever feel the need to speak further on any of those subjects, feel free. I understand this pain to an extent XD.

That is a glowing review, LOL. Now that I think about it, I did watch one episode when I was on vacation and nothing else was on at the time XD. I had no idea what was going on though. I was so confused but it seemed cracky. Not sure if the whole series is like that though.]

Actually, my translational focuses is precisely on and fictional, stereotyped role language, so, I'd LOVE to get you started on bad translations. From ttsu to the Every Character Ever In A Sports Manga/Jean Havoc -su slur to the -tamae form to ja-as-a-copula to the difference between no yo and no and wa and mono girls, I'm quite anal.

...Which doesn't necessarily mean I can convey them in good writing in English, unfortunately, but I like pushing awareness of them onto people who can write (and thus provide a translation accurate first and foremost in fidelity and secondly but highly in spirit).

Unfortunately, of all the things the leading Japanese writer on role language, Satoshi Kinsui, has published in English, none of them touch on the topic much more than on pronoun choice.

Might depend where you're at in Brotherhood, since the plot is entirely different. Ohnogi and Irie are both kinda notorious for not being able to figure out how to carry a mood for a scene, much less manage any comedic insert gracefully. FMA1 is confusing if you jump in anywhere in the 3rd or 4th season. Though, if Brotherhood made no sense, then Director Irie failed. One of his goals stated in at least two interviews done back just around the time it was launched was to make it a series that wasn't too heavy and that could be easily followed by children and people who missed an episode or two, and fully enjoyable for people just tuning in somewhere. Which begs the question of why the hell he picked a manga series marketed as a "dark fantasy", but I also question the studio in passing over a big name franchise to an animator, much less one who's never directed more than a few filler episodes of some stock shounen anime in his life.

Lol!!! It's amusing how you categorize yourself. Verb conjugation in general seems to be a sticking point for some translators. Granted there are a lot of ways to alter verbage in Japanese. Have you ever written an essay or article about all these issues. I'm sure it would be an interesting read. ~~I used anime and manga as a subject for presentations/essays far too often in school.~~.

Ah don't sell yourself short. Your writing appears rather polished even in these ooc posts. *nod nods* But it's true that capturing the spirit of a character can be tricky in any work. You can be too literal quite easily.. or too much like a textbook without exerting proper care.

Pronoun choice? Really? I would think those would be the least difficult of any category. Particles have to count higher, they simply must. What about idioms! Idioms can be a pain to one that isn't familiar with the idiom in question.

I'm sure it does but I was able to realize the plot greatly differed from what I remembered from the first series. Like who killed Winry's parents, etc etc. This is what we call.. goal fail XD. You can't just pick it up anywhere]

Funny you should ask; my undergraduate thesis was on yakuwarigo. I used Fullmetal Alchemist as my source for dialog and surveys, since every major character has a distinct verbal stereotype they represent. Then I spent most of yesterday pouring over the SK institute's summary of research on fictional language use and stereotypes.

I wouldn't call it polished; I'd call it having a decent enough grasp of the English language to convey information and ideas at the most basic level. Characterized speech styles, especially since I'm only interested in playing Japanese media characters and am writing in English, go past basic. I'm not about to think of every line of dialog in Japanese just to translate it for play, but at the same time the general speech traits have to be carried over to each line, and for anime and manga there's no canonical English speech cadence or trait. Frankly, lots of writers and players who don't know a lick of Japanese have "translated" style over more accurately through sheer artistic talent than I'll ever be able to with my best attempts to dissect and tab every speech trait, tic, and frequency. By that same token, you get translation companies or localizers who try to artistically add/create/reflect style and get waaaaaaaaay off the mark, too, but if I knew how those who did it skillfully and accurately did it, I'd be one of them. And a better translator.

If you check the adddictions meme community, there was a post musing over the languages in the game community a few days back that might be of interest to you. I'd be interested in seeing what you have to say with Ciel being in England, where they speak English, contextually but obviously speaking Japanese in the media itself. And will he think he hears the Undertaker if Greed makes an audio post? *shot*

I love the manga, but there are some themes anime1 just did better. Roy as Winry's parents' killer being one of them. Pretty much all of the villains besides Grees and AnimePride/MangaWrath/theFuhrer being another.

I had my suspicions! I found that using such topics always made the work a little easier to stand. You should post it sometime if you're able. I'm certain that FMA provided plenty of material for such a thesis.

Have it your way, though it does sound like you at least think before you type which is more than basic in my opinion. This reminds me of a subbing group's motto. I can't remember the group but it went something like "Translating based on facial expressions alone" which they did more than that in actuality but the idea was to take the imagery in mind when translating the text or the video. There's a lot to consider in bringing the right feel along with it. This is making me want to go back to work on the translations I was working on .... I have a bad habit of being distracted easily... ~~This is also true. I guess you have to give them some credit for trying~~.

Hmm, I might just have to give that a look see. Along those lines I'm reminded of Great Detectives Poirot and Marple as well. Another anime set in England only this time you also have Poirot who speaks English but is also Belgian. And since the stories come originally from English to Japanese trying to represent English speakers... it's pretty fascinating. ~~YES HE WILL~~

~~I might have to read the manga sometime for comparison~~

More than making a topic easy to understand, it was convenient to rip lines from because each character is distinctly socially different from the rest of the cast. I had a sampling of students who, mostly, had never read FMA or perhaps didn't read manga at all, took various lines out of context and looked to see what the readers assumed about the speaker based on the stand-alone line. Participants were asked to highlight or explain what they considered cues, though some lines had no particular cue but consistent guesses. The followup I tried post-graduation in English was less successful; while I still persist that English is capable of reflecting these traits, I'm kind of forced to bow to Kinsui's assertions that in general, English can't manage it on each and every short line. Still doesn't mean I can allow translators to just consider it something doomed to be lost in translation and not bother with, however. No. No credit for them! I'm forgiving of scanslators as long as it's not a clear intentional error (FMA's main scanslation group is notorious for these), but licensing companies are paid professionals with an unalterable final physical product. I expect to be bloody STUNNED by their translation work if it's going to be not only paid for but the one given the most weight, for better or for worse, by the English speaking fandom.

There's also the reverse difficulty of NOT adding layers to an E-J translation, but since I'm ultimately more interested in anime than any foreign medium adapted to Japanese (I'm a hardcore proponent of watching things in the language of the writer/director), the E-J problems just don't concern me much, beyond curiosity with issues like "How in the hell would they translate THAT?!"

I saw P&M! Not a fan of Agatha Christie novels at all, but the director has done a lot of little under appreciated works I've liked, so I checked it out and was not disappointed.

To understand? Oh! No I meant to "stand". I'm not a fan of homework assignments and busy work, so having a more interesting topic makes it more enjoyable and less tedious. If it's something I'm researching on my own and not for a grade, I appreciate it all the more.

I think with a study like that it would also greatly depend on the translation and the audience. There are a lot of variables to consider. There are certainly ways to convey differences such as those through language, it's just not every translator is affluent in that department. Plus if the first audience was more attentive than the second, they could have easily missed picking up on what you were instructing them to do. I also hold official companies to a higher standard. Those that are working on translations in their spare time and not getting paid for it have my kudos for being so dedicated. Those that are getting paid for it should focus on quality and not quantity.

I would love to get something like a book that was written in english then converted to Japanese for Comparison. I think that would be wonderfully educational in it's own way! Sometime, I'll have to remember that and try ordering something. There's a cheap used bookstore near me that sells a few books in Japanese too, maybe one day they'll be carrying something! It is where I found a few Doujinshi and a children's book. (I'm weird.. I know.. I always wanted a Japanese Children's book XD)

Yes! It was a good series. Poirot wasn't as arrogant as he seems in the english representation. Yes, he is polite but in the Japanese version he was missing some of that arrogant flair. And some of his eccentricities.

Misread stand as understand, my bad.

Still, as for more attentive, the larger the sample numbers, the more the individual differences are supposed to filter out. The JP audience study had a little over 500 and the Eng one had 404. Admittedly, the English part didn't go over well enough to bother making any real report on it, since it'd be too easy to dismiss as an inadequate translation rather than a linguistic difference. Which, since English is a very broad language, is the stance I prefer, but I do think it's easier to convey gender, class, age, etc. in one line in Japanese than it is in one line in English. (example: "Dame" vs. "Dame da yo" vs. Dame ja" vs. "Dame desu wa." ) So, I think a translational style should consider context and slap characterizing dialogue in even in the lines where in Japanese there is no characterizing trait even when there could be (because slapping 'wa' and 'ze' and 'nou' at the end of EVERY sentence would be too much).

I can't agree with translating based on facial expressions alone, myself. Sometimes the speech pattern is at odds with character behavior or expression; failing to capture that contrast is the unfortunate reason 99% of the English speaking FMA fandom, even those who watch it subbed, think that Kimblee's polite mannerisms were missing in Anime1, making him just a regular violent nutjob. Certainly, he lacks the physical cues of such (he'd never appeared as more than a silhouette in the manga by the time the anime had finished), but his speech pattern is spot on with the manga. Then sometimes one gets bad animators, or sometimes you're translating Brotherhood, so whether or not the facial expression can be read properly becomes questionable (the art team for Brotherhood is so damn bad it's like a joke). As for official companies, unless I hear the translation is damned good AND sub only as some Bandai DVDs were, I import the DVDs even if it's more expensive for fewer episodes and lacks any translation, just to avoid financially supporting a dub, so, most people would label me as an extremist on that front.

If you're interested in books translated from English to Japanese, Yakuwarigo no nazo discusses the Harry Potter translation quite a bit. I've never read the either series, but it and LoTR had a lot of fan response and concerns around speech style translations for the official Japanese releases of the novels/movies. Not sure where one would go about picking up the novels themselves in Japanese, but HP is popular enough I bet you could find a copy if you live near a place that has Japanese kids books!

I got lucky! I got a pretty generous research budget, so I was able to just walk into Book Off and buy shittons of manga to give away to participants and various people and as gifts to anyone who helped me in any way. $1.20 per manga is a damned good deal. I'd sometimes give away manga and novels just PRETENDING I was looking for input when really I just wanted more people to read good manga and talk to me about it...

In your example alone I can think of a dozen different ways to write that same phrase in English and have it sound as though it were coming from a different speaker. Plus oftentimes characters will use words not associated with their gender. Like a girl will sometimes use "boku" for me, instead of "watashi" or "Atashi". That's the problem with words too... they don't always fit into precise categories as male or female, privileged or not privileged. An old person can use childish language.. a y9ung person can be brilliant. It's complex XD.

I didn't say they only used facial expressions alone. That was just a slogan they use. They also paid attention to what was actually being said. It was more of a slogan meant to be humorous XD.. but you can't entirely disregard the expressions either. It depends on the series and you should take the actual tone into account. Clearly.

Awesome! Thanks for the website. I'll have to check it out when it's not 4:30 am XD. The selection isn't always good but every now and then!

Wow! That is pretty lucky and amazing :D! Yeah it is. At my cheapy store the manga is like 4 dollars each, usually. Sometimes more. And sometimes they have manga in Japanese too XD.

Lemmie add a caveat XDD... cuz I'm too lazy to delete. "In your example alone I can think of a dozen different ways to write that same phrase in English and have it sound as though it were coming from a different speaker. " In that case I was thinking in terms of written language. Not matching mouth flaps like in anime XD... but then again.. I tend not to watch dubs.

I forget about mouth flaps XD.

Do you ever use aim or anything?

I could check the player info but.. that might be too easy.

And this is why you shouldn't answer tags when you should be sleeping XD

If taken out of context, is there a translation for each line alone that can give you a solid guess as to the type of character? Dame desu wa ("That simply will not do!"?) can probably carry the upper class feminine since it's a more extreme character type, but "Dame" as generally young/feminine or dame da yo as young/slight masculine or Dame jya as an elderly marker, not so much. The traits get used outside of their stereotyped type (bokukos and orekos; the da yo ending is common for girls who aren't hyper feminine (Winry vs. Roze); a stereotyped gay man would definitely use 'dame desu wa' like a refined upper class lady) so a character's collective dialogues are important to establishing the total feel, which is why I favor translating one line based on the other lines for the character, which seems to be what the facial group actually does.

Sometimes you get a Japanese writer who's honestly just not that good with speech styles. Bad writers happen. Good writers make mistakes. Since I favor accuracy above all else, if there's a sharp step out of character in speech, even if it's not an intentional or part of the plot, that slip-up should be translated as a failure. For example, mostly polite Al, in Brotherhood, basically dropped an MF bomb at Scar. Hilarious as "KISAMAAAAAAAAAAA!!!" from Al of all people is, it's so OOC, even in the heat of the moment, it ruins the heat of the moment. The worst Al ever uses in the manga to my memory is omae, and is more the type to use "kono" than that when doing a 'why, you!' routine. But even if it would lessen the experience of viewers, I'd say the diverge is a part of the work, so, go with an uncharacteristically rude translation. One, because that's what's there. Two, because doing otherwise is imposing a translator's view over the work or line. It's possible just to not really know the different weight of words, too. Kisama is a bad pick for Al, but Temee would be worse; probably most dictionaries won't denote the difference. It's all just "you (arch/vulg)". 　Someone might argue Al screaming 'Mother Fucker!' or 'son of a bitch!' or whatever is IC in context; but if they know no Japanese, and the translator decides it's so wrong it doesn't fit for translation, the non-Japanese capable who count on you don't have the freedom to consider that. At the same time, it's possible they might just assume it's a common translation flub where a translator just likes to make things more vulgar.

Translating the distinct differences between Al, Winry and Roze's speech styles without going overboard on any of them seems like it'd be a hell of a job, and there's not much chance of them getting mistaken for each other in Japanese. But there are some writers (right here in this game, no less) that I genuinely believe could do it; the problem is where there grasp on the character, and the actual linguistic cues do and don't match up properly. I'm sure as hell not perfect at it; as I said, my writing skills are on the low side. Greed's kind of an extreme even if quirky/language jumping type, so I get an easy job; our Issei (F/SN) player has a weird mix of vocal traits and while she doesn't know a lick of Japanese, she's fantastic at it. Issei has some rough masculine speech patterns but there's also enough old fashioned bits peppered in such that what's commonly rude takes a contextual step down, and then he's also actually fairly polite in a way and... well, I don't summarize it nearly as well as she plays it. Lot of good being anal does me who can't deliver.

That's the kind of challenge translators should be facing today, and when I see fan translations try harder without the means or access to research on the topic that a professional has, it's disappointing.

As for dubbing, I don't consider that a valid form of translation as far as fictional works go so adhering to lipflap isn't a real concern of mine. A dub is its own separate entity, like a parody or a fanfic. Whether it's good or bad is subjective, but objectively it is not the work in question.

Yup! I'm on AIM at CdnmMastermind pretty much all of the time. Feel free to start me off on an elitist bastard rant or watch me froth uselessly over the difference between "ka" and "no ka" without ever finding an answer.

I'm not sure that means the Japanese writer isn't good with speech styles, they may have done it intentionally to convey that the character is different, outside the norm or something along those lines. Though there certainly can be poor writers in anything and mistakes~!

I would have been surprised to hear Al saying Kisama o.o;. For sure. Inu Yasha could say it XD... but .. Al would be odd.

And it is disappointing when the professionals don't even try to remain accurate. I guess I'm not to the point where I don't consider a dub a valid translation XD even if I don't watch them. It is but it has to adhere to another set of rules. I imagine it would be harder to match the animation than to get words to fit on a manga page... though sometimes... even that can be tricky length wise. Japanese can contain longer sentences and phrases in a few words sometimes XD.

Awesome. I'm on aim a lot as Cyromew if you ever want to chat. LOL!!! At least you can joke about it to an extent XD. We all have our pet peeves right? Oh and believe me I can rant about translations too XDDDD... when something gets to me.

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I made your icon fall over.